Classic sounds: Mel Lewis with Chet Baker

We refer to Mel Lewis often, for good reason; he was one of the most vocal authorities on cymbal sounds for jazz, and was known for consistently having some of the best sounding cymbals in drumming. This recording by Chet Baker exemplifies everything we’re looking for in a good cymbal sound: defined stick sound, big, exciting crash sound, overall tonality more warm than dark.

It’s notable that the sounds are all fairly straightforward— they’re focused, and not particularly trashy, washy, or exotic. The sound of the cymbal perfectly supports what is being played on it. Lewis gets some funkier effects with the hihats, which are thinner, with a very big sizzle when played half-open.




Choosing cymbals

UPDATE: Videos of individual cymbals are now on YouTube, with more coming tomorrow (10/30). All will be listed on this site this week.

While we are getting the recordings and descriptions of the new cymbals together, here is a rudely-edited video from the cymbal selection process on Friday. If you want to purchase anything you hear, send us a note, including the exact time that the cymbal is being played, and we’ll do our best to locate it.

Recorded on an iPhone with a Rode VideoMicro microphone.


Order of cymbals played:

0:00 – 22″ Holy Grail rides Richard and Louis, with patinas. I believe Richard is on the right.

0:41 – 19″ Holy Grail rides and crash/rides. None of these were purchased, but we can likely get them if you contact us before 11/5. Same with other cymbals in the video.

1:35 – 20″ Holy Grail jazz rides. We took several of these.

3:28 – 20″ Holy Grail rides – adding some slightly heavier cymbals. Cymbal & Gong 20″ medium rides are typically in the 2050 gram range— very light for a medium, and very versatile.

6:00 – Two 20″ Mersey Beat crash/rides. We took the one on the left.

6:45 – Two 20″ American Artist rides. This series has more medium-weight cymbals, with a bright finish.

7:25 – 20″ Kervan jazz ride or crash/ride. Kervan is the same as the Holy Grail jazz weight, but with a natural finish. Patinas can be applied to all cymbals if you wish.

7:50 – 22″ very light Holy Grail jazz rides— under 2100 grams— and the unlathed “Krut” ride. The Krut is a little thinner than the jazz rides, with a deep but well-defined sound. Normal HG jazz rides are ~2300 grams.

12:00 – Playing more 22″ Holy Grail rides. At 14:30 we discuss doing a special, extra heavy patina on that cymbal, which has a distinct muting effect. That cymbal is on hold at C&G if anyone wants it— we won’t be listing it on this site this week.

15:00 – Adding some slightly heavier 22″ Holy Grails.

17:48 – New custom series “Midnight Lamp.” I believe sizes are 14, 16, 18, 21, and 22. Let us know if you’re interested in this series— it may be possible to get these cymbals if the dealer who ordered them passes; certainly more can be ordered. It’s undecided whether this will be a regular series.

22:25 – 18″ Holy Grail crashes; I believe some rides and crash/rides are mixed in. I had a hard time deciding— there were a lot of nice 18s that sounded similar (I continue to be impressed by C&G’s consistency), and I only took three.

29:39 – Chinese/swish cymbals. Sizes are 18-24″. Fairly unique design with a wide flange and large bell. Weight is approximately medium-thin. This was not a great room for listening to swish cymbals; at the time they seemed very explosive and somewhat uncontrollable for riding. But the one 20″ I brought back to my studio is actually a great performing swish; should be great for light riding (typically you only ride lightly or extremely loudly on a swish anyway), very responsive for light accents, and of course the powerful crash is always available. Cymbal & Gong smiths have controlled the more obnoxious/abrasive overtones that are often a problem with Chinese-type cymbals.

34:30 – 15″ Holy Grail light hihats. Again, there were several excellent sets of these, and I had a hard time choosing.

Cymbal day this Friday!

UPDATE: Cymbals are in!

New cymbals we have available:

18, 20, and 22″ Holy Grail — ten fantastic rides and crashes, all in jazz weight. Many folks have been interested in 20 and 22″ rides, but these 18″ crashes are GREAT— I encourage you to consider them.

• One set of 15″ thin Holy Grail hihats. There were no 16″ hats in the new shipment , unfortunately, but these 15s are just as good. More are available— I played several equally good sets.

20″ Mersey Beat ride— I have two currently available.

22″ custom Turk-style ride— or “Krut”, as the smiths call it— unlathed, thin, with a low, complex sound, with good definition.

20″ Swish. I’ve never gotten to play C&G’s Swish cymbals before, and they were very interesting, with a unique profile— larger bell and wider upturned edge than is found on most other brands. Medium-thin, available sizes from 18-24″.

There was another interesting custom line, “Midnight Lamp”, with features similar to another brand’s “Anniversary” series. These were special-ordered by a dealer in California, who has first option to buy them. I think they’re very cool, and will buy them if that dealer passes. Dark, well-defined, somewhat more aggressive than the Holy Grails.

Video of the selection process is coming soon, as well as audio/video of the new cymbals— check back throughout the weekend!


The last shipment of the year has arrived, and we will be selecting cymbals for the December 2018 Germany tour on Friday, October 26th. The best variety of sizes/models will be available that day— email us today to make your requests!

We will be meeting people and showing cymbals in Berlin (Dec. 3) and Dresden (Dec. 5)— you can order/make requests as late as November 25th. Sign up for our mailing list or check the site for full tour details.


Bill Stewart on cymbal technique

Here’s a nice video of part of an interview with Bill Stewart, speaking with Quincy Davis of the University of Manitoba, in which he discusses his cymbal technique. Note that the conversation is entirely about sound— nothing about speed or high performance, nothing about technique in the abstract. It’s all about getting a sound he seeking from a cymbal he was using at the time.

Classic sounds: Ben Riley with Thelonious Monk

In this series we listen to some great recorded cymbal sounds, some reminiscent of Cymbal & Gong cymbals I have played and owned. Here Ben Riley is playing what sound like a medium weight 20″ K, and medium 18″ A. Both cymbals are straightforward, clean, dry, and rather heavier than you might expect. The 20 has a nice smoky accent sound, and a defined, rather metallic ride sound. The 14″ K hihats are darker and more complex, but we don’t hear as much from them. Played by itself during the drum solo, the 20 has an odd, very pronounced harmonic. The 18 is very clean.

Ronald Shannon Jackson on cymbals

The great drummer, composer, and band leader Ronald Shannon Jackson is best known as a player of a giant Sonor set with Paiste cymbals in the 80s and 90s, but here he talks about the old A. and K. Zildjians he played earlier in his career, in New York in the 60s:

“I remember how turned on I was by the K. Zildjian sound to begin with. Then when I heard Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers, that was really it. I’ve played A. Zildjians. My mother bought me a set of Slingerlands when I got out of high school. That set came with a 22″ medium ride and a pair of 14″ hi-hats, so I’ve played A.’s all along. But when I was coming up, all the hip guys used K.’s and Gretsch. Every month in down beat there’d be these ads, and everyone looked so clean and sharp in their suits and ties: Max, Philly, Blakey, Art Taylor, Elvin and all of them.

Basically I find the differences between A.’s and K.’s to be a matter of taste. A.’s aren’t bad. I just prefer the warmth of a K., but a K. can be a lot worse if you don’t get the right one. I’m talking about the old cymbals, now. I used to be able to go across the bridge to the Gretsch factory when they were in Brooklyn. They’d warehouse all the K.’s, but man, after Elvin and Tony and those guys had picked their way through, there wasn’t much left. I couldn’t believe how many bad cymbals there were, but I figured somebody’s got to be buying them. In fact, some of those warped, funny belled cymbals really work for cats. I’ve got a 22″ K. I bought from Frank Ippolito for $70, from his last shipment of Turkish K.’s. Nobody wanted it because it was messed up with a bad dip in the cup, but you can get some beautiful sounds out of it… sometimes. To me, the tones of a K. allow for a variety of inflections, whereas an A. doesn’t change that much. You can get a great sound, but it’s always going to have that distinctive A. sound: bright, high pitched; with that big cutting bell sound.

But see, there are all kinds of K.’s. Some of them were so metallic that by the third set of a gig you’d be tired of listening to it. That’s why you have to find the right one. That’s how me and Tony Scott fell out. We were playing a gig at a club in the Village, and I had two K.’s: a crash and a ride. Right in the middle of a tune, Tony Scott came over, took my cymbals off the stands and reversed them, putting my crash where my ride was and my ride on the crash stand. He was basically right, because that ride was just too hard, especially for clarinet.”

Classic sounds: Charli Persip with Gil Evans

In this series we listen to some great recordings with cymbal sounds reminiscent of Cymbal & Gong cymbals I have played and owned. Here Charli Persip plays some very thin, funky K. hihats, and possibly 18″ and/or 20″ As or Ks. The hihats make the biggest impression, but the other cymbals are very cool to me, even as their sounds are difficult for me to define. They have a rather airy sound, non-metallic, and high pitched.


Mel Lewis on cymbals

Mel Lewis talks about cymbals in his 1985 Modern Drummer interview. This is pretty much the bible on the subject, as it relates to jazz:

Number and type
The average drummer usually uses two to four cymbals. To have any more than that is totally unnecessary, because where are you going to put them anyway, and how are you going to reach them? They shouldn’t be there just for looks. I notice that most people have crash, crash, splash, ride, and hi-hat. Very few young drummers play on their hihats, except in the rock situation where they generally play them closed and they play their 8th-note beat on them. They should learn that the hihat is another ride cymbal to be played properly—”ta, da-ka, ta, da-ka, ta,” changing rhythms and all that, open/closed, all open, half open, half closed. There are a lot of effects. To me, the hi-hat is another ride cymbal.
Every cymbal I use is a ride cymbal. Every one of my cymbals is also a crash cymbal. I only use three. Three is enough.
But every cymbal should be a ride cymbal and every cymbal should be a crash cymbal. I’ve been noticing that almost everyone has only one ride cymbal and a million crash cymbals. You don’t need the crash cymbals. You need the ride cymbals, because that’s where your whole thing is coming from. Crash cymbals are only for accents, so you can hit any cymbal for a crash.

I find that all the cymbals should be dark. If you want a high-pitched splash cymbal or crash cymbal, fine. That’s to your own taste. But darker cymbals are more complementary to horns than any other kind of cymbal. High-pitched cymbals have a tendency to obliterate high sounds.
The more high-pitched cymbals you have, the more trouble you’re going to give the band. Also, for riding in a big band, I think that the pingier a cymbal is and the less overtone and spread it has, the more empty everything will be. It’s important that you have a good, full, fat-sounding cymbal. Finding cymbals like that today seems to be a problem. They are all too heavy. Definition is one thing, but those pings do not cut through. There has to be a little more sound to a cymbal than they’re creating right now. They’ve forgotten how to make ride cymbals with color. They don’t know what dark sound is. That’s why I still like the old K.’s. They’re hard to find, but it seems like they are the only cymbal that was made for music.

Orchestrating cymbals for big band
[W]hen you hit a high crash cymbal with the brass section while they’re up in that high register, you will knock out half their sound. But if you hit a cymbal that will blend with that section—in other words, if there are four trumpets and the fourth is playing the lowest part, you should be the fifth trumpet, which is lower yet. Now of course, we can’t go that low all the time, but that’s the way I’m thinking musically. Trombones, of course, can go lower than my cymbals can, so I want to be somewhere in the middle register where I don’t obliterate the lead and I don’t destroy the bottom.
With the saxophones, you want a roaring sound to envelop, because reeds don’t have the power that the brass has. That’s why I believe that during a sax soli— where you have five saxophone players standing up playing together—nothing sounds better behind them than a Chinese ride cymbal, because there’s a blend. Bass violin players love Chinese cymbals because the low sound and the Oriental type of roar make the bass sound spring forward. That’s why, when we play big ensembles, I’ll go to that cymbal, and you can hear the bass just singing through everything. When you’ve got a whole ensemble, you want a strong, enveloping, low sound with a lot of clarity as far as the beat is concerned. It’s like a picture with a beautiful metal frame around it. It gives tremendous fullness to the sound of the band.

Big band drumming
That’s why I prefer the darker sounding cymbals and that is why I tell every drummer, “Every cymbal you have should be a ride cymbal, because you should treat the different sections with a different ride behind it.” There is nothing worse than the monotony of one cymbal going on behind everything. When the band is playing along and they keep hearing the same cymbal sound, it just disappears in their minds. But when you make a change to another ride cymbal, it wakes them up again.
Even in my dark sounds there is still a higher sound, a medium sound, and a lower sound. I’ll use the high sound behind a piano. I’ll also use the lowest sound behind a piano. But I won’t use the middle sound behind the piano because it’s too much in the piano’s range. Behind the piano, a flute, or a muted trumpet, I’ll also use the hi-hats or brushes. When I’m playing behind, say, a trumpet solo followed by a tenor solo, and I know that the tenor player is a hard-blower, I’ll use the Chinese cymbal behind the tenor. Now, if it’s just going to be a trumpet solo, or if the tenor player has a lighter sound, I’ll use my normal 20″ ride cymbal. But I’ll always save my Chinese for the hardest blowing soloist.
I don’t work it out; it’s just automatic—which cymbal suits which soloist. I want to have a low cymbal behind a soloist who has a harsh, high sound. With a subdued type of player who has a softer edge, I don’t want something that strong, so I go to a lighter, higher sound to complement it. When the band is roaring, for main ensemble work, I would stick with my 20″ ride or I would use my hi-hats and really lay into them, which was the norm in the old days anyway. If it’s an ensemble that keeps building, then when I hit the final loudest point, I’ll go to the Chinese.
So I might play three cymbals in the course of an ensemble. If you have three choruses of ensemble— which is rare—the first chorus is not going to be that shouting. It’s going to build to that. The second one is going to be stronger so you change cymbals. Then you go to the roarer for your last one.
Another thing I’ve found is that it’s good to change cymbals on the bridge of tunes and then go back. A bridge is a musical change, so your cymbals should be a musical change also. If it’s the first chorus, I’ll play
hi-hats for 16 bars, go to a light ride cymbal for the bridge, and then go back to the hi-hats to finish it out. Then I’ll go to my chosen ride cymbal for the solo.

As and Ks
At the time of the interview, hand-hammered, K-type cymbals were only beginning to be widely commercially available again, after being difficult to find for a decade or more. The older A. Zildjians Lewis refers to were generally thinner and less clean/bright than modern ones since approximately the later 1960’s.

The old A’s were too—the old ones. But today, they’re thinking in terms of loudness and durability rather than musicality. I know what I’m talking about because I hear the complaints from everybody. I see it in your magazine here. Everybody’s complaining about the cymbals—that they’re all too heavy. Even the famous rock players are complaining that they can’t find enough colors in their cymbals, but that they would really like to find some. And everybody wants to have an old K. There’s a reason for that. I’ve been playing original K. Zildjian cymbals practically all my life.
The early hand-me-downs from my father were all K.’s, because that’s what he used. Then I bought my first A., which I still have to this day. That’s the famous one with the pieces cut out. Buddy Rich says it’s probably the greatest ride cymbal of all time. I feel the same way about it. Everybody seems to know that cymbal. Of course, it’s reached a point in its life where I can only use it occasionally, so I just use it for small-group recordings now, because it’s starting to crack again, but it still has its flavor. That would have been considered a bad A. in its time and it would be considered a horrible A. today because it was low pitch and a real medium weight, but that came from my K. ears.
Later on, when I came to New York, I used A.’s for a while. All my A.’s were really considered by most people as not very good. They were all low pitched, but they had definition. Bandleaders I worked for were always complaining about them—that they spread too much and so on—but that was what I liked. You either took me as I was or that was that. When I joined the Kenton band, I needed to use A.’s because they are louder and I needed the volume. So I stayed with the A.’s there for a while. One of my ride cymbals was that famous one, with two rivets in it, which is my trademark. To this day, I’ve been using two rivets in my ride cymbal. Of course, as soon as I left the Kenton band I switched to K.’s completely. That was the end of ’56. With my small-group playing, actually, I was using K.’s all along, but I became a permanent K. player from ’56 on.

For more background on Lewis, this Modern Drummer piece by Rick Mattingly is highly recommended.

Selecting cymbals

I want to give a little context for the late talk about cymbals; mainly, what I think is good and bad, and my thinking when hand-selecting Cymbal & Gong brand cymbals for people who want to buy them through this site.

First, I’m talking about cymbals for all genres of acoustic and moderately amplified music, and for recording— meaning the full dynamic range of the cymbal is used, from extremely soft to as strong as the cymbal can play with a musical sound. I don’t factor for extreme power drumming situations, arena volume, or for relentless bashing with heavy sticks. My standard for a good cymbal tone for this purpose comes mainly from jazz recordings of the 1950s and 60s, and from drummers who continued using older cymbals into the 70s.

The main questions are: how does it sound, how well does it do all the normal things you expect a cymbal to do, how does it handle when playing with an ensemble, and does it project and blend appropriately for its purpose.

Cymbals I choose for my own use have to meet the Mel Lewis standard— everything is a ride, everything is a crash. Within that I have my own categories of primary (your main cymbal on which you will do most of your playing), secondary (“left side” cymbal, contrasting the primary— usually smaller, and either heavier or lighter, maybe more idiosyncratic), crash (good for stronger, faster, more cutting accents and light riding), and hihats (obvious).

Overall impression of the sound can be clean or complex, refined or pleasantly chunky. Should have a focused ride sound free of unpleasant overtones, an excellent stick sound, bell sound, shoulder of the stick accent sound, and an explosive but musical crash. Controllability is important; I don’t want the wash to easily overwhelm the stick sound in normal playing. Hihats should have a solid foot sound, and a good sizzle when played half-closed, and preferably a good bell sound. Performance should be excellent in a dynamic range of very soft to very strong.

More broadly, do I like it? Do I want to play it, or do I want to move away from it? How comfortable is it to play? Do I have to adjust my touch for it?

Things I consider to be flaws include: an overall unpleasantly crude sound, overall poorly defined sound, unpleasant overtones, over-brightness, over-darkness, metallic, washing out easily, hard to control, won’t crash, piercing bell sound, weak bell sound, unpleasant gong-like overtone, too much noise/trash in the tone, too refined/glassy a sound to the point of having no body; too loud or too soft when played normally with other cymbals— especially when the crash sound is unbalanced, either underwhelming or over-loud. Too one-dimensional in either sound or function. Sounds and handles poorly at very soft volumes. Any general feeling of obnoxiousness or over-delicacy.

The Cymbal & Gong cymbals I own and have played hit a lot of sweet spots very consistently. Other cymbals I’ve played, owned, and gigged with over the past 20 years— which is a lot of cymbals by all major manufacturers— often have an amazingly hard time hitting even a few. That’s why I’ve been complaining about it, and it’s why you saw me suddenly overjoyed when I found the C&G cymbals a couple of years ago.

Rehearsal cymbals

Originally posted on the CRUISE SHIP DRUMMER! blog in April 2018.

Everyone is looking for excuses to spend money on gear, so here’s a concept: rehearsal cymbals. We’ve all played rehearsals where the instrumentation and/or acoustics made it extremely difficult to play normally. Maybe there’s an unmiked vocalist, acoustic guitar, strings, whatever. A clarinetist with a really weak sound. Playing our normal 20-24″ cymbals at normal-quiet volume blows them away, so we end up playing the entire rehearsal with brushes on the snare drum and closed hihat, and it’s nothing at all like what’s going to happen on the gig. A complete waste of time.

A lot of these situations can’t be salvaged, but in general it would be nice to have cymbals that sound good when played quietly in somebody’s living room, with no audience, when we only need to project to the other players standing a few feet away.

Here is generally what I would suggest: little, thin, dry cymbals.

18″ ride — light to medium, unlathed/partially lathed, small or no bell
15″ crash — paper thin to medium thin
13″ hihats — light to medium

Some thoughts on makes and models:

Bosphorus cymbals
Their Turk series are nice cymbals, with great definition, and playing them you feel like Tony Williams on Nefertiti. They sound really nice from the playing position. I was into them for awhile, but eventually found them to be too soft for most real world playing with an audience. They don’t project well unmiked, and they don’t balance well with the rest of the drumset or with the ensemble. I’ve written about this before. But they’re good for recording, and would be good for rehearsals.

Bosphorus’s Master Series are an option that are even quieter… I have actually found many of them to be so thin and delicate they virtually have no real world application at all. But a ride that is not too thin, or a 18″ Master thin crash (check your gram weight— it should be comparable to any other brand of paper thin crash) could work very well for what we’re talking about here. Seriously, beware: there are a lot of extremely thin examples floating around that I think are completely useless as musical instruments.

Flat rides
I think I’m done with flat rides. I find them to be one dimensional and not worth the real estate in my set up. They can be good for rehearsals, though. And certain special situations. Try an 18″— or smaller, if you dare, and can find one.

Little rides
I got interested in sub-18″ rides after reading T. Bruce Wittet’s account of Connie Kay’s 17″ medium-heavy. I had a 17″ 602 and a 16″ Zildjian medium ride which were both intriguing— they really do handle like real ride cymbals, except, hey, they’re small— but for whatever reason did not hang onto them.

Paper thin crashes
I find these to mostly be too delicate for the real world, but for this usage you can get a real crash sound without generating a lot of volume and sustain.

Dixieland hihats
Usually pre-60s A. Zildjian, smaller than 14″. Revival Drum Shop, a great Portland vintage shop seems to find and carry a lot of them. They’re extremely thin, tight, and splashy, without much of a foot sound.

Sabian Sound Control
I started thinking about softer cymbals when playing a boat gig with abysmal acoustics on stage, and these Sabians were some of the first things I looked at. They’re supposed to be quieter than normal cymbals. I never found one to purchase before I got into Bosphorus cymbals, and the few I encountered never struck me as particularly quiet. But I have found many newer Sabian AAs and AAXs to have a minor case of Bosphorusitis— their sound has been so refined that they lose some body… which makes them good for this purpose. A 20″ Raw Ride (18″ if you can find one) would be good, or a small El Sabor crash. I have used an older Jack Dejohnette Signature Ride before, but the combination of being extremely dry with a very penetrating stick sound made them unattractive for this purpose.

Often the problem in these situations is the signal to noise ratio: when playing very soft, and in close quarters, the wash of the cymbal is amplified relative to the attack of the note. You can cut down on the wash by applying 1-4 pieces of masking tape on the underside of the cymbal, radiating out from the bell. It’s not a very popular solution any more, and not as fun as buying more cymbals. Less is more, if you choose to do this.

What do I use for rehearsals?
13″ Bosphorus Turk Hihats — Their normal light model. I’ve used mine on every recording I’ve made in the last 15 years. I now find them too insubstantial for normal performance applications.
17″ Cymbal & Gong Holy Grail Crash — A great cymbal I now never go anywhere without. Thin, rather dead (in a good way!), with great crash, ride, and bell sounds. I could do the whole rehearsal just on this cymbal.
18″ Cymbal & Gong Holy Grail Ride — With three rivets. An unassuming medium-weight cymbal that happens to sound great with other musicians. Very traditional bebop sound.

Here is my 18″ Holy Grail ride, together with my 18″ Leon Collection crash, and 14″ Holy Grail Hihats: